Matrix: What type of small stream rod do you fish?

[Roy]

Bamboo, primarily - Schliske Slayer 7.5 ft and a 1piece 6.5 ft by Matt Davies on a Chapman blank. Threw out all my old Sharpes.

Some fibreglass 1piece 5ft, 2piece 7ft Hardy; both good rods, I'd fish these in heavy brush as they are disposable, so far proven unbreakable :)

Some graphite - Scott 6ft 3wt, also awesome and a Cabelas 8.5 ft 3wt for open banks

Need more rods
:mrgreen:

[Ernest]

Terry,

Bamboo doesn't have to be expensive. I buy used. I currently have 12 bamboo rods. I added up the prices I paid, and it was under $900 for the whole dozen. Three of them are as they came from commercial rod shops. Another one needed refinishing to make it usable, and I did that myself. One was given to me by the rod maker. The rest were made by local hobbyists, and I have remodeled and/or refinished them to my liking. Some of them are really pretty and fish very well, and some are just good, solid fishing tools. I only have 12 because all those I haven't liked, I've discarded. It doesn't take a lot of money to get into bamboo, but it does take some time, some looking around, and some letting people know you're interested. I don't look for rods much anymore, but now people call me and offer me rods at good prices.

I am the Luddite who responded to the poll saying that I fish small streams mostly with wood rods. I make them myself. That's not pertinent here, except that it says that I am not afraid to take on a distressed rod and play with it to make it work for me. Some of my cheaper bamboo rods were junk until I invested a couple of hours to fix them up. I have never made a bamboo rod from a culm, and with people giving me rods cheap or free, I probably never will. I have great respect for people who make a nice rod from scratch. It takes some learning to make a nice bamboo rod.

Adam is right. At retail prices, the graphite rod is the most expensive rod you can own.

[terry]

Thanks for the info.

I can see were a bamboo is a better rod for the money, but I am looking at my $200 and under price limit. Can a bamboo be found at that price?

[adam]

Odd as it may seem, it sounds as if I were in the same shoes as you were. I didn't want to spend more than $250. I bought a South Bend 7' 5-weight that had a crisp action that I enjoyed but the ferrule "ticked" and as far as I'm concerned, when a rod "makes noise" while casting, besides wind stroke and line moving through guides, it is broke. The guy who I was working with was the local bamboo guru who loved fishing bamboo for bass. He semi restored rods but sucked at it and it set me way back with bamboo. I knew I was going to have to get a new one.

At one point, I was on Team Loop in America and had access to just about any graphite rod I wanted at reduced prices and or trade out for advertising at smallstreams.com

I was approached by a bamboo rod maker. Smallstreams.com was young and HUGE. The guy was reading about my stuggle with my South Bend or something and just gave me a bamboo rod, one exactly like I wanted. I told him that I liked as short of rod as possible but I still liked a little length and stealthy so he made me a rod, a blond (I enjoy blond rods) 7' 3-weight. I was not going to fail this so I looked into advertising for a shop and traded out a Thebault Silk Line for it and slapped a Ross San Miguel for line winding.

The rod sung to me each time I would go fishing.

The rod cast itself.

The loop was effortless and watching the cast loop send seemed to make time stand still.

Done deal, hooked, love it.

I pulled the ferrule off on a cold morning, shit. I had another tip but it hurt me. I sent the rod back and on another trip, pulled another ferrule off. No way, same bad feeling about bamboo again. A friend who also got a rod from this guy, two ferrules pulled off, he lives here too. Bad glue technique but I'm back in graphite land again, bamboo being archaic and I'm not going there ever again (personally)

The anglers I enjoyed reading love bamboo and always had praise for it. I started asking people about ferrule maintenance and such. Bad glue/technique all came to tell me. I ran more bamboo contest and still admired bamboo, albeit with pursed lips and not really knowing what it was about bamboo.

I meet up with a guy who rolled graphite rods himself. I love his work and had a pretty big bundle of small stream rods through a 10-weight I had made for the salt and he invited me to come to the shop. My son and I stood there and watched him and help roll a prototype 1-weight rod that he and I were going to work on for small streams. I loved that rod very much, as much as ANY Sage or Thomas that I had cast and I had finished it out from a blank.

Graphite was winning by a margin.

This whole time I am growing older and more mature, getting a whole lot better at fly fishing having fished the mountains to the sea and back again. One year, I fly fished nothing but salt and much of that was with a ten-weight in a panga.

But when I was in the mountains, I remembered that little 7' 3-weight and the song it sang, how beautiful it was (when I could put it together) and that memory, even in light of the ferrule coming off was burned in.

I forgot how it came to light but we had a small stream meet (just a few guys) scheduled, a couple of the guys who wanted to meet were Mike Shay and Matt Shliske. We meet at a little stream under the rim here in Arizona, it was cold (the gallon of water froze hard outside of my tent, I was the only one camping overnight) and I think Eli and I got skunked, maybe everyone else did too, can't remember but Matt didn't. He snapped images (we all did) and had caught fish. We cast a few rods from him and Mike Shay. We talked about ferrules and they agreed that it was bad/glue technique and that they don't pull off all the time however bamboo is not in the same construction as graphite and each has attributes that are not contained in each other...

I dropped the prejudice right there and was invited to Mike Shay's shop to see how bamboo rods were made.

Mike decided that I should be making my own rods and he and I made on in his shop together for me (which I love and fish all the time with no ferrule pulling off) and I went on to start my own rod shop.

I started visiting bamboo rod maker gatherings and to educate myself about bamboo. Meet as many makers as I could, started a web site geared towards bamboo rod makers and now I have this comparison for you.

100 graphite anglers - 100 bamboo anglers

The 100 bamboo (wood guys in this group) are the guys who love the mountains, know the outdoors, know the ins and outs of tying, know fishing. They are not caught up in the media frenzy for the latest and greatest. They are the ones I want to be a part of and learn from.

The 100 graphite guys are into FISHING! Focused on it but not the most knowing of the whole scene of fishing and the outdoors. Lower percentages of all around (tying, conservation, casting dynamics) general knowledge... Concerned more about names than performance.

Having the intimate knowledge of how much a bamboo rod cost to make and how much a graphite rod cost to make, breaking that all down, much of the cost of a graphite rod is overhead and advertising. I don't like how a graphite rod company presents fly fishing. Not my cup of tea, I don't like anything about it. Graphite rods do work but they are insanely overpriced and I will not buy another one at that price point.

...and I have had many many of them from the finest companies, Sage, Thomas and Thomas, Orvis and such. I have a fool biography at grassart of all the rods but it is private, hold on, I'll cut and paste.

I have cast hundreds of rods besides these below...

Composite Fly Rods Owned
0-weight: Sage SPL, SLT
1-weight: East Branch, Orvis Superfine, T&T PA, Steffen
2-weight: Sage LL, Orvis Superfine, Steffen
3-weight: Sage LL - SPL, Orvis Superfine, Steffen
4-weight: Lamiglass, Orvis Superfine - HLS, Steffen
5-weight: Orvis Clearwater - HLS, Steffen
6-weight: Orvis Clearwater, Steffen, T&T HS-S
7-weight: Steffen
8-weight: T&T HS-S, TFO TiCRX
9-weight: Orvis Clearwater
10-weight: Steffen, T&T HS-S
12-weight: T&T HS-S

European Two-Hand: Loop 12' 6" 7-weight

Composite Fly Rods Built
0-weight: Sage SPL - SLT
1-weight: East Branch x 4, Sage SPL, Steffen
2-weight: East Branch, Sage LL
3-weight: Steffen, Sage LL x 3
4-weight: Steffen x 2
5-weight: Steffen
6-weight: Steffen
7-weight: Steffen
10-weight: Steffen

Composite Fly Rods Fished (other than those owned or built)
0-weight: Sage
1-weight: East Branch, Orvis, Sage, T&T, Steffen, Blanton
2-weight: East Branch, Orvis, Sage, Winston
3-weight: Sage, Steffen, Orvis, Winston, Scott
4-weight: Sage, Steffen, Lamiglass, Winston, Loop
5-weight: Sage, Steffen, Orvis, Winston, Loop
6-weight: Sage, Steffen, Loop
7-weight: Sage, Steffen
8-weight: Sage, T&T, Steffen, Winston
10-weight: Sage, T&T, Steffen
12-weight: Sage

Fly Reels Owned
Pflueger: (various)
Orvis: Battenkill - 3/4 - 5/6 - 9/10, CFO I - I23
Hardy: Featherweight - Flyweight - Marquis - Marksman
Loop: Traditional - Midge - Dryfly 2, 2W, 3W, HiTec #1 - #3, CLW 8Twelve
Tibor: Freestone - Everglades - Riptide - Gulfstream
Ross: San Miguel #1 - #2
JW Young & Sons: Beaudex 3" - 3.25"
Fin Nor: #3 AR

Bamboo Fly Rods Owned
JW: 7' 3-weight
M.Shay: 7' 9" 3-weight
Gary Lacey: 7' 4-weight
South Bend: 5-weight, 8-weight
H-I: Tonka Queen
Montague Rapidan
Orvis "Shooting Star"

Silk Fly Lines Owned
Thebault: 2 - 3 - 4
Various: 3 - 4 - 5 - 8

I've built many graphite rods and I'll still build one for a friend, they work and they work well and I may own one in the future but it's bamboo rods for me, they are inexpensive compared to graphite.

Now I'll tell you, the last rod I bought was a graphite tenkara rod at about $130 bucks or so. I LOVE this rod because in it's configuration, it will be very difficult to make a bamboo rod that will do all the things it can do. It shines in that you can telescope it down and stuff it into a backpack. Along side that rod will be a specific little pack fly rod in bamboo that I have ordered from Steve Kiley. I'll be paying more for that rod than any Sage rod but it is damn worth it. There are a handful of guys I would buy rods from knowing I'm going to get a great deal and the rod will sing. I can even make that rod but I enjoy collecting a few rods from my friends, I take them along with me.

Graphite rod designers never did anything for me except overcharge me for a rod that they did not make...

I don't know you, this took about an hour to type but I think it's worth it because I enjoy your posts and can tell that you are talented and care about what you do.

memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=87

I've looked at your posts, you seem to value your money, that's good. Invest in yourself and purchase a rod from an established maker. Ask around, see who other bamboo enthusiasts rods they like and enjoy.

I can offer you a few names as well.

Blah blah blah, yadda yadda I hope you enjoy the web site no matter what you fish.

[Ernest]

$200 is plenty, in my neighborhood, not for a top of the line rod, but for a good fishing tool.

Sometimes you can find a fishable rod for that price. Sometimes it needs a little repair work. If you have the coordination to tie flies, you have the ability to fix up a rod. If the cane is sound, replacing the reel seat, grip, guides and finish are easy.

I have two 6 1/2', two piece, 1 tip rods for 3 and 4 wt lines, one quite fast and one a bit slower in action, that I made for almost nothing when I matched up parts of different broken rods that people were about to thow out. Before you pass final judgement on that kind of thing, you should fish these two rods. They both have excellent actions.

Sometimes it depends what you have to put into the deal. I wanted a print of a watercolor a local artist had for sale for $95. He wanted a small stream bamboo rod. I had matching bamboo parts lying around and fixed him up with a 6 1/2' 4 wt, 2 tip rod, with a grip, windings and finish to his order. Both of us had very little invested in the trade, I like the print a lot, and he loves the rod.

Another time I traded a couple of old fiberglass rods that I hadn't used in years for a nice little 5 wt bamboo.

You have to look around, ask around, and you'll find them.

[terry]

Adam, thanks for the time you put into that last post, its greatly appreciated. You have opened my eyes to a few things.

To be honest with you, I have never put much thought into how much of a rod's price comes from advertising. Its more of a what is the best fishing tool I can afford on my budget thing. Right now an Orvis silverlabel 7' 5 weight is my favorite. I bought it used.

Ernest, thanks for your info too. I will be putting in some time trying to find a cheap boo now. Something bewtween 7 and 7-1/2 foot long, and 4 or 5 weight.

I will add more later, right now its off shopping with my family.

[mikeytwoshoes]

terry - there are always reasonably priced vintage rods available on ebay, assuming you're willing to do restoration work on the rod. restoration is a lotta fun and very rewarding. most of these old rods are quite heavy. you'll be hard pressed to find a 7-7 1/2 ft rod in the reasonable price range.

anyways, keep yer eyes open here...

http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=bamboo ... pg=&_sop=1

[terry]

I am kind of eye balling #79 on this page:

http://www.classicflyfisherman.com/PRE_OWNED_RODS.htm

[greendrake]

Nice post Adam. I'm glad Shay got you straightened out as far as bamboo goes.Otherwise Grassart may not have come about and we'd be all the poorer if you hadn't started that site.Seriously!

Terry, The SB 290 is a good entry level bamboo rod.They are all listed as 5wts but some of them really work better with a 6wt.

[palewatery]

A graphite rod is the most overpriced rod by far.

At retail prices, the graphite rod is the most expensive rod you can own.

With the greatest of respect I would have to disagree with both of you. It’s not so long ago, only a few years, since cheap graphite rods were downright nasty and the difference in quality from low end to high end was huge but those days are gone.
Brand new you can easily pick up a graphite rod that’s serviceable for $100 and one that’s really very good for under $300. Last year I cast a friend’s rod that was bought new for $60-70 and while it looked rough it cast beautifully. Top ends for pretty much all the big name brands are around $700, compare that like for like with Bamboo rods from the same big name makers, Thomas & Thomas Classic $2600.. Thomas & Thomas Individual $3450.. Orvis Standard $1395.. Orvis Special $3500.. Winstons for $2750 - $3000. Then there’s Tom Morgan Bamboo for $3850 and Graphite for $1400. Tea Stick Bamboo’s which I’ve never tried but have heard are not great start at $600 for ones machined in the far east and finish built in the US.
For new rods top names who make both types of rod have the average cost of the Bamboo’s at least twice the price of the top Graphite’s, the market sets the price for both of them.

Second hand is much the same story with the market determining the price only supply and demand come into it a bit more, but if you spend time looking you can pick up Graphite bargains just the same. High end rods change and get updated every couple of years so second hand ones are readily available and with the cheaper rods getting better every year decent second hand Graphite’s are getting better and cheaper too.

Whether Graphite is better than Bamboo or Bamboo is better than Graphite is a whole other subject. It’s also very very open to each individuals likes and dislikes.

The 100 bamboo (wood guys in this group) are the guys who love the mountains, know the outdoors, know the ins and outs of tying, know fishing. They are not caught up in the media frenzy for the latest and greatest. They are the ones I want to be a part of and learn from.

The 100 graphite guys are into FISHING! Focused on it but not the most knowing of the whole scene of fishing and the outdoors. Lower percentages of all around (tying, conservation, casting dynamics) general knowledge... Concerned more about names than performance.

Again, with respect, that’s a sweeping generalisation. That’s your experience/opinion and I respect that but it cannot be expanded across the whole fishing scene. At least not from a UK standpoint, maybe it's a cultural difference between the US and the UK???

My 2p.