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adam
06-30-2012, 09:01 AM
I am hiking more and more off trail in the forest. Using the GPS, I am cutting the corners to hidden streams. On Indian Nation lands in AZ, I can not carry my pistol, so I bought a big can of Bear Spray and carry it on my belt.

We have had three Black Bear attacks this summer. Yogi bear looking for the pickanic basket type attacks in the camp grounds.

Not my scenario.

Do you have to deal with bears?

Give it up...

ksbioteacher
06-30-2012, 04:53 PM
With this summers contains I'm thinking of some spray, myself for southern CO.

Ernest
06-30-2012, 08:48 PM
I grew up in rural NE Minnesota, and I live now in rural NW Wisconsin. Both of these states are half forest, and both have plenty of black bears. In recent years the number of bears has been increasing and they are expanding their range, and they are coming into towns to look for food.

At our last home we had bears in the yard often. We took in the bird feeders at night, and the bears still climbed up on the decks. My wife had four of them come around the side of the deck and surprise her from twenty feet away. They were surprised too, and she asked them to go back into the woods, and they did. We had one come in the front yard in broad daylight, our dog saw him out the window and went nuts, and I threw rocks at the bear to chase him away. At our current home I’ve found bear scat on the driveway. A big sow has a winter den on a neighbor’s land. She’s never bothered the neighbor’s 150 sheep. The neighbor took out a couple bales of straw and some old carpet to make her den more comfortable, and he hopes this good bear stays. If this bear leaves or is killed by a hunter or hit by a car, another not so nice bear may move in.

Since childhood I’ve had many fishing, hunting, camping, and berry picking encounters with black bears. I’ve never been afraid to go in to the woods when there are bears around. They try to avoid people. Our woods are so dense that it’s possible to get close to a bear before he knows you’re there. Once when fishing a small stream, I looked up and saw a cub in a tree about six feet from my head. I didn’t know where mama was, and I decided to quit fishing. A couple years ago I was fishing a little bigger stream and came upon a sow in a big oak nursing two cubs while another cub scrambled around in the branches above her. I was about thirty feet from her before I knew she was there. I talked to her, and she decided I was not a threat and let me fish through. I have many other bear stories.

The most difficult bears are the big old ones with worn down teeth, or other physical problems that make it hard for them to find enough food. They’re hungry, and their hunger makes them bolder.

We have had a few documented bear attacks in Minnesota and Wisconsin. There have been problems in Minnesota’s Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness. People have fed bears at their campsites, and those bears lose their fear of people. In NW Wisconsin we had a Boy Scout seriously hurt when a bear came in to the tent. The boy had a contraband candy bar in his sleeping bag and the bear wanted it. The Scout was lucky and he lived.

Through fishing clubs and other associations I have met at least a couple hundred trout fishermen. I don’t know anyone who carries a gun, or who carries bear spray in the Upper Midwest. Just about everyone has met bears in the woods, but we don’t think we need guns or bear spray.

Some trout fishermen from the Upper Midwest will buy bear spray when they go to fish where there are grizzly bears. I don’t know anyone who has used it.

ryan
07-01-2012, 11:28 AM
I've encountered quite a few black bears here in NM and southwestern CO while hiking, hunting (elk, not bear) and fishing . A few have even made me do a double-take since they've been large and cinnamon-colored, and I've read about the "Ghost Grizzlies" of SW CO one too many times. In one case, I had an arrow knocked while hidden under some gambel's oak, thinking an elk was coming my way. The bear got close enough to get my heart thumping (15 ft.), but wanted nothing to do with me once it figured out what I was. Anyway, in all encounters actually, the bears have turn and run as soon as they catch my scent. Had they decided to run at me, I don't think I could have un-holstered a sidearm or bear spray and gotten a shot off if I needed to. A word of caution from experience, keeping bear spray in your car/truck can be disastrous if the can overheats and explodes, especially in the cab of a small pick-up truck while driving!

adam
07-01-2012, 10:53 PM
Reading, reflecting, thanks for the posts.

It does not hurt to have it along, or a pistol. Hope I never use either.

Ernest
07-02-2012, 07:55 AM
I don’t know anything about modern handguns and loads. What kind of gun do you need to stop a bear at close range?

I had an uncle who taught soldiers to use handguns in WWII. He said that a .38 would kill an opposing soldier but wouldn’t stop his forward momentum on a bayonet charge, and the dead soldier falling forward might still reach our troops. They switched to .45’s, which had slower muzzle speed but heavier bullets and more impact, and the .45 would stop a man charging with a bayonet.

Most of our bears are bigger than most men. But WWII was a long time ago, and maybe the loads are different now.

Like Ryan, I don’t know that I’d be able to get off a shot if I was surprised by a bear. If I knew the bear was there and had time to bring my gun up, then I’d have a chance.

adam
07-02-2012, 11:56 AM
Uhh, to my Japanese friends, please do not take Ernest's comments as pointed towards Japan or it's beautiful people. Ernest is old and wise and he does not mean anything bad towards Japan, just an illustration of his knowledge.

Ernest, I don't carry weapons to kill bears, I don't carry weapons at all. One time I kept a small pistol in my fishing bag and I placed it there because of bears and it did not make me feel any better.

If I meet a bear and it is too close, I will fire a shot or three into the ground first, I am programmed for peace.

gusstrand
07-02-2012, 04:07 PM
No worries - I made Ernest's post a little less specific :)

adam
07-02-2012, 04:16 PM
You got a tough job Gus, you are up for it.

I got bear spray now, I doubt I'll carry it much and the pistol will go in the bag far less if ever.

Zanko
07-02-2012, 11:37 PM
Bear spray is a must for me these days. You're right it's one of those things you never hope to have to use.

Typically yes the bears are more scared of you than you are of them, but just in case one bear becomes bold I want to have some sort of protection on me.

I will always carry it on my belt and probably won't go on another trip without it.

Trucha
07-03-2012, 03:29 PM
I had some encounters with bears while out in the woods/stream side. Once I was going downstream to hop in the river and fish up to the vehicle. When I got to the spot where I was going to enter the river I started to cross a little meadow with tons of wild roses and full of hips. Halfway there, I a brown bear jumped to its feet and stared at me for an instant; I probably did the same and was staring right back. The bear jumped into the river and took off. I walked back to the Expedition and had a beer.

Another time I was on a nice Sangre de Cristo stream and from the corner of my eye saw something coming down the hill. My first thought was that I was an elk or two because of the color. I got the attention of the person fishing with me to point out the "elk" that was on the opposite bank. When I focused on the animal I realized that it was a huge bear with two cubs. The blond bear had a dished face, humped shoulders and the cubs where as big as most bears in the state. I told my companion to reel up and if the bear continues walking we should head to the vehicles. The bear and cubs stopped on farside slope and stared for awhile. We decided to leave and the bear turn and started to walk across the slope up into the forest.

ksbioteacher
07-03-2012, 03:40 PM
My earlier post evidently did some "self" correcting or I just typed it in wrong.....hmmmmm. The point I tried to make is that this summer is turning out like a couple of recent ones where, due to drought conditions the bears are likely to be stressed and not in their more normal behavioral pattern. At least, that is my assumption based on the information I have at this point. The last time that this type of drought occurred we had a nightly bear in the small mountain community going through trash cans. Most summers that does not happen. Stressed bears are less predictable and for that reason I'm considering the spray for just this summer. To be truthful though, the problems of keeping it around and transportation make me leery of it as well.

On another note, I think there is some evidence that the lack of hunting in some areas for large predators is resulting in populations that are not as likely to exit the scene. I know that in Shenandoah Park, I've found that most bears mosey off but they certainly show no fear when I encounter them in the back country. I've had similar encounters in PA and NJ. Never, had a problem in CO. I think it is very easy to get overly alarmed but I also think it is expedient to take appropriate precautions based on the risk assessment. As a person that generally fishes alone, I'm thinking that carrying the spray this summer might help put my wife's concerns at ease when I'm out.

BW

BW

gusstrand
07-05-2012, 04:13 PM
FWIW, I didn't edit your post...

ksbioteacher
07-05-2012, 04:20 PM
Didn't even consider that you had done anything Gus. I was referring to my iPad' s. correcting routines.

grayling
07-06-2012, 03:11 PM
I’ve worked on a fish, wildlife and people management career path since 1974 … and in Alaska since 1994. I’m a biologist, manager, LE officer, firearms instructor, defensive tactics instructor, and OC-10 (pepper spray) instructor. I’ve field investigated bear mauling where everything was done wrong and “death by bear” incidents where everything was done right. I’ve shot black and brown bear with handgun, slugs and rifle (not in defense of life situations.) I’ve sprayed “advancing” black, brown and polar bears; and 250+ thick neck LE officers who assured me they were going to kick my ass after I sprayed them (they are required by policy to get sprayed if they are going to carry spray.) It worked 100% of the time … end of story. The bears immediately stopped and exited the situation … as did I. The only officers that didn’t immediately go down had closed their eyes and held their breath (not much of a threat to me in that condition.) When they opened their eyes or took a breath … down they went. A breeze that quakes the aspen can be a wild card (read that problematic) in your applying the spray in the best manner and place (read that in the bear’s full face from less than 7 meters.) I’m also sure that there are “he said she said” stories that the spray didn’t work … and some may even be true.

When I day trip ride my motorcyles in Alaska I’m ATGATT … and that doesn’t include spray or deadly force (However if I just feel like shooting I’ll carry something appropriate … and yes … I have concealed permit.) If hiking to the fishing hole or overnight camping in the bush … I carry spray and/or handgun. If on extended float/hike “into the wild” I add long gun with slugs/nosler partition to the mix. Warning shots have never worked for me … if bears are coming to see what’s going on … they come anyway. But that doesn’t mean they’re coming to eat me. Work requires me to carry cracker shells. The only time they worked was when I shot them in the ass from a distance as they were already leaving the area and I wanted them stay “left.” If they come around again then I leave … after all, I’m the visitor in their home.

I'm perfectly comfortable just carrying bear spray (. . . or just a gun.) In AK and Canada documented reports . . . there have been more "succesful" stopping bear incidents with bear spray than with firearms . . . and you don't have to deal with a dead bear afterwords. Stay mindful, involved and prepared in the field … carry what you need and not a gram more.

adam
07-06-2012, 05:38 PM
That my friend, is exactly what I needed to hear.

Thank you.

Ernest
07-09-2012, 10:12 AM
In a recent news story from forested far NE Minnesota, a woman heard some noise at her kitchen door, thought it was her husband at first, and then went to investigate and found a large black bear halfway in the doorway. She screamed and rushed at the bear, and the bear backed out and retreated into the woods. She didn’t need a gun, or a broom, or a wooden spoon, or any other weapon.

My concern with what we’ve written about firearms and bear spray is that people will assume the bears are something to be feared. I’m all for safety, and I don’t think anyone should do foolish things around wildlife. Let’s be realistic about the risks, and as grayling says, “stay mindful, involved and prepared in the field … carry what you need and not a gram more.”

I won’t discount grayling’s reports about his experience in Alaska. I have not been to Alaska. What I read is that the brown bears there are a whole different animal than the black bears we have here in the Upper Midwest.

If we teach people that they need to carry a weapon, they are less likely to go into the woods at all. That would be a loss. My three now grown children as youths experienced camping, backpacking, hiking and wilderness canoe travel in the north country. None of them ever carried a weapon. They developed their strengths, learned self reliance, and learned to appreciate the natural world. Lots of young people and adults too, are afraid to get off the trail or out of sight of the road. They learn to be afraid, which is very sad.

On Saturday I had a timber wolf cross the road in front of my car. In a post on another board a few years ago a man learned that the area he fished had coyotes, and he asked for advice on what kind of handgun he should carry for personal protection. People answered him too, with recommendations including some pretty heavy calibers. That’s pitiful. Coyotes and wolves are not a threat to people.

My first black bear “encounter” while fishing/camping was 50 years ago. I’ve run into them many times since. Except for a couple times when I got too close before knowing it (described in my earlier post), I’ve never been afraid of, felt threatened by, or been startled by a black bear.

When I’ve encountered a black bear, a moose (several times), or a timber wolf (a few times, almost never) on a fishing trip, it’s been something to remember.

Now if I’m eaten by a bear on a fishing trip next week, I won’t write in to report it. If I continue to post on anything, you’ll know it didn’t happen.

Zanko
07-09-2012, 06:34 PM
I hike in places sometimes that are so remote that if something unfortunate did happen I probably wouldn't make it out.

Do I bring protection such as bear spray with me? Yes, I most certainly never leave the house unprepared. It's not that I am so scared that a bear is going to come out of the woods charging me, but yet I like to be prepared in any worse case scenario. I always abide by the saying that "you can never be to prepared". I love being out in the woods miles from anything, just me and mother nature.

Really, the thinking should be to respect your surrounding and always be prepared for a worst case scenario. Not having the thought process of living in fear of a bear / mountain lion attacking you. Sure, more times than not a bear is going to avoid you at all costs, or the moment he see's you he will run for the hills.

Just by chance you run into that one animal that decides to be bold, it doesn't hurt to have spray.

Just my two cents...

adam
07-09-2012, 06:48 PM
Dude almost pulled the spray on a bull at a put and take lake...

*smile*



I understand what Ernest writes though, I had someone read a story of mine and died trying to do what I did. People often do things on the whim of others so what Ernest tilts at, I understand.

The three of us stood around right before we took off from the car on our grand adventure up into a high mountain valley, far away from the road or anyone else. Both the other guys had bear spray and mine was in my bag in the car. They started laughing about, "I only have to be faster than the slowest man, Adam, looks like you are it!" and we all chuckled.

There is a part of me that just doesn't care for carrying anything.

There is a part of me that wants to be prepared.

On the reservation, I can't carry a pistol so sometimes I carry bear spray.

Bear spray is no big deal, if you hit someone with it, they are not going to die. It's no big deal.


And guns?


Be responsible, we have constitutional rights about arming ourselves and out in the outdoors is no problem far as I'm concerned. If someone wants to carry a Desert Eagle cause he is afraid of a coyote, if it is legal, none of my business.

Just like keeping fish to eat.

If it is legal, and you are following the law, then I got some matches to start the fire to cook those fish.

martin_b
07-12-2012, 05:51 AM
A Canadian friend of mine put this on his facebook the other day, scary...
http://www.holmbangsoe.dk/webimg/smallstreams/bear.jpg

Ernest
07-12-2012, 11:37 AM
Martin,

That’s a cool picture of an adult black bear on a deer stand. It’s a grown bear, but not a real big one. The bears grow faster than their ears, and a big bear will appear to have small ears.

That’s not a scary situation. The bear feels safe where he is, and will stay there unless a person on the ground does something to threaten him. 200+ pound black bears are treed regularly here by a single 30-40 pound dog, and the bear will stay in the tree until the dog leaves.

A bear will wander into a small town in Minnesota or Wisconsin, something will scare the bear into climbing a tree, a picture is taken for the local newspaper, and when people leave the bear alone he will come down and retreat into the woods.

People in some of the larger towns and suburbs will gather around a treed bear and will not disperse at the instructions of the police or game wardens. Eventually the bear is shot to protect the citizens who wouldn’t give the bear a chance to get back to the woods. That’s unnecessary and sad.

jeepster
07-14-2012, 12:51 PM
You guys have persuaded me to get bear spray. I’m not sure what size to get. There seems to be a lot of different sizes on the market. I’m going to put it in my travel trailer. I think a difficult bear encounter will more likely happen around camp at night and I don’t really want to shoot up the camp in the dark. For the stream I am going to continue to carry my tekna dive knife on my chest pack. I carried my mid size .45 a couple times and it’s not for me. I don’t want to carry the extra gram either. The .45 still has its place when I’m back at the truck.

adam
07-15-2012, 02:28 PM
Counter Assault and don't forget the storage canister for storing in your trailer. You don't want that stuff going off in the heat of the trailer and getting everywhere, the storage container will prevent contamination.

ags
07-17-2012, 08:15 PM
Ernest, Quick Draw - This may be of interest to you.

http://trib.com/news/state-and-regional/article_1c0a1c24-5d3b-5f56-8e77-0bef6ea7191e.html


A BEAR STORY -

Group of friends decided to go to Montana to fly fish some of its famous trout streams. Being meticulous, they wanted to cover all contingencies related to the trip. Thus, the grizzly bear subject came up for discussion.

They all agreed that grizzlies could be a problem. One friend informed the others that he was going to prepare for the possibility of meeting Mr. Grizzly by practicing running every morning until they left for the Montana trip. They all laughed and taunted him while informing him that in no way could he outrun a grizzly. “I know that”, he retorted. But, I don’t have to outrun him; I just have to outrun you guys!

BTW, have read that a 150 lb bear is 3 or 4 times stronger than a strong 150 lb man.

Ernest
07-18-2012, 05:38 AM
ags,

I have heard before that when fishing in grizzly bear country you don't have to be able to outrun a bear, you just have to be able to outrun your fishing partner.

Adam started this thread writing about black bears. We live with black bears all around us, and when we see one in the woods, or on the lawn, or on the porch, we stand up to them and speak loudly, and they retreat pretty quickly. It would not be wise to run from a black bear, because then she might confuse you with a prey animal.

I am several weight classes above that, but I have no doubt I would be pinned pretty quickly in a wrestling match with a 150 pound bear. People are pretty soft compared to wild animals. I don’t think I could handle a grown raccoon, even. Maybe a squirrel.

gusstrand
07-18-2012, 10:08 AM
To beat the squirrel, you must think like a squirrel.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Z2_kKAe9y0

Brooktrout
07-18-2012, 09:28 PM
Great and relevant discussion. I have hiked, camped, fished, and backpacked all over Montana, Canada, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico for about 27 years now. I even spent 2 1/2 weeks in AK last summer. I ALWAYS hike or fish with bear spray, period. (Use UDAP or Counter Assault in the Magnum sizes and order the holsters so you can have it on your belt ready to use in an instant.) Like the scouts say, "Be Prepared."

Although most black bears will run at the first sight or scent of man it is not as uncommon as one might think that they will try to stalk, kill, and eat homo sapiens sapiens. Wolves too. They are wild animals and given the right (or wrong) set of circumstances they will kill humans. I am not saying that humans are at the top of their menu though. But don't let the soft headed greenies fool you. Just last year some poor schmuck in AK was killed and partially consumed by wolves, n/k.

But GRIZ is a completely different deal. GRIZ evolved out on the rolling plains during the Pleistocene where the best defense was a ruthless, savage, and immediate offense. And this is in their DNA. Given enough space GRIZ will leave you alone, but get too close or startle a sow and cubs or a bear on a kill and you're in deep trouble in a hurry.
If you have practiced drawing your bear spray and releasing the lock, you will be more ready to respond if that charge ever comes. It's just like owning a pistol, you have to practice with it in order to be prepared to use it effectively. I don't remember the odds but you are much more likely to hit the bear with pepper spray than you are to deal an immediate death blow via any kind of pistol round. Besides, bears run so fast that you are lucky to even get off one well-aimed round.
If anyone remembers the Timothy Treadwell deal in AK you will remember that when the rangers had to shoot one of the bears that was eating on poor, dead Tim they shot it 14 times with a .40 semi-auto and unloaded 6, 12 ga slugs into it before it finally went down for good.
Bear spray works best.
Use the trusty Model 1911 against the two-legged predators.

killisnoo
03-02-2014, 07:39 PM
Here in Alaska, everyone has a theory on Bear, and Bear protection (even those that never venture farther than the city park). I always carry a weapon (375 H&H), but I think one tried and (Hopefully) true plan is to travel with others. There is no record of any Bear attacks when people are together in the bush. But there is No guarantee.