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rsetina
05-30-2010, 10:49 PM
After two weeks of waiting for the day to arrive we got up at 4:30 and headed to my sister Norann's house to meet up with her, her husband Mike, and my brother Ron. After a short drive to the trailhead we took off to see what trouble we could get into.

I think I'll call this creek, Flintstone Creek. I think Fred and Barney used to live up here with Betty and Wilma. :lol: I love the slab seating and they were really comfortable!

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/rsetina/Flintstone%20Creek/P5300010.jpg

The beginning of the trip was a dirt road that lead to several private homes scattered along the way, until we came upon the main foot trail.
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/rsetina/Flintstone%20Creek/IMGP0121.jpg

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/rsetina/Flintstone%20Creek/P5300008.jpg

This was our first look at the river close up. The water level seemed a little low but as we walked up river the flows seemed to increase.

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/rsetina/Flintstone%20Creek/IMGP0123.jpg


Alot of the creek was slow moving wide shallow pools but patient walking along the river produced larger pools and deeper sections with riffles that looked like promising areas that could hold fish.

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/rsetina/Flintstone%20Creek/IMGP0124.jpg

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/rsetina/Flintstone%20Creek/P5300013.jpg

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/rsetina/Flintstone%20Creek/P5300014.jpg

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/rsetina/Flintstone%20Creek/IMGP0132.jpg

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/rsetina/Flintstone%20Creek/P5300015.jpg

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/rsetina/Flintstone%20Creek/P5300016.jpg

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/rsetina/Flintstone%20Creek/P5300020.jpg

I did manage to land this little guy and had two other fish on the hook but they came off just as quickly. In one large pool 2.5 miles up the river there were several larger fish that could be easily seen in the very clear water, but there were some swimmers there that started jumping in after they took a break for lunch so I didn't get much of a chance to fish it. I did get one of the fish to rise to a nymph that had just hit the water and in my excitement I think I pulled the hook out of his mouth.
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/rsetina/Flintstone%20Creek/IMGP0126.jpg

My brother Ron, sister Norann, and me taking a breather. Sorry it's a little blurry.
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/rsetina/Flintstone%20Creek/P5300019.jpg

Norann, Ron and Mike.
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/rsetina/Flintstone%20Creek/P5300018.jpg

Norann, Ron and Sherry.
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/rsetina/Flintstone%20Creek/IMGP0131.jpg

And Sherry's mandatory sleepy time nap on a rock. That girl can sleep anywhere!
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/rsetina/Flintstone%20Creek/IMGP0133.jpg

Here's view of the canyon. The weather was beautiful and the 5 mile round trip seemed to go quickly. We didn't make it to a waterfall farther up river. Mike strained a ligament in his foot but kept going for another 3 miles before heading back. He was a trooper. We'll be heading back in a few weeks to hike to the waterfall and see if the fishing is better upstream.

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/rsetina/Flintstone%20Creek/IMGP0137.jpg

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/rsetina/Flintstone%20Creek/P5300021.jpg

The happy hikers heading back to the car for lunch at Red Robin.
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/rsetina/Flintstone%20Creek/IMGP0138.jpg

It was a great first trip and I'm looking forward to seeing what's up river from the big pool. I'll let you all know in a few weeks.

adam
05-31-2010, 09:22 AM
http://www.tenkarausa.com/forum/viewtop ... f=11&t=638 (http://www.tenkarausa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=638)

This is a double post.

In the days of the old smallstreams.com, this was greatly frowned upon. I don't know how Gus looks at copied material from another site but I do not recommend it. Original material written for smallstreams or from your own blog is fine, excellent if I may say so but this is not a "cut and paste" zone the way I see the post.



Perhaps you or any other authors did not know, that is ok, no harm, no foul.



This is an old fly fishing web site, this is one of the core reasons why we promote your writing.

Originality.

I think it is time for Gus and I to talk about it.

That being said, looks like you guys had a lot of fun and practicing tenkara is so easy that it does not take away from a family adventure. I really like the picture of the rock camp. Reading the current crop of enviros (rock ring etc.), that would upset them and I understand why, but I think the image envokes great memories, empty and ready...

rsetina
05-31-2010, 11:26 AM
I posted it here and on the Tenkara site so all my friends had a chance to read my post. Not all of the people I communicate with are on both boards. Sorry if it's frowned upon but I didn't see any harm in it since it was my "original writing". It wont happen again and again my apologize for my ignorance of the rules.

adam
05-31-2010, 12:51 PM
You didn't know the rules, you fell into this and there is no need for apologies.

This is a way for others to understand this as it is a good example.

"Frowned upon" is my term, keep it to that context and it's all good.



Smallstreams.com is an old site and it's based on a old forumula. Since you are here, I'll say that we have gathered quite a group of talented angler/writer/photographers. Lot's of people do what you did, yours is just obvious for me and easy to point out.



I prefer to read original material here, that is based on the quality, not quantity of the site and it goes along with the great things you read and see here. There are magazine authors here that know about this "frowning upon" and they get it and respect it, there are magazine editors here that get it too.

No worries, you didn't post this at tenkara-fisher.net for a reason, hmm.

Care to comment?

rsetina
05-31-2010, 01:43 PM
You didn't know the rules, you fell into this and there is no need for apologies.

This is a way for others to understand this as it is a good example.

"Frowned upon" is my term, keep it to that context and it's all good.



Smallstreams.com is an old site and it's based on a old forumula. Since you are here, I'll say that we have gathered quite a group of talented angler/writer/photographers. Lot's of people do what you did, yours is just obvious for me and easy to point out.



I prefer to read original material here, that is based on the quality, not quantity of the site and it goes along with the great things you read and see here. There are magazine authors here that know about this "frowning upon" and they get it and respect it, there are magazine editors here that get it too.

No worries, you didn't post this at tenkara-fisher.net for a reason, hmm.

Care to comment?

I don't understand this last comment. I'm not a member at tenkara-fisher.net.

I think what I'm reading here is that if I want to post something here, then it's frowned upon me posting the same report on another site? If I do then it's not considered an original post? Or it's just not original to your site? Post it here only, or don't post it here at all is what I'm getting from of your comments. Wow. Really? I thought this was a site where anglers could post what is really all original material since every time someone clicks the submit button it's original, unless they press quote and don't type anything else, but maybe I'm wrong. All my photos were original, they were my words, my family, my fishing experience, just put on two websites, and I guess that is frowned upon. Really? Seems a little elitist to me. If I found this site different from others I visit I could see your point. But I don't see any difference. It's a group of guys sharing experiences on the water. Can you give me count of how many guys here visit the Tenkara site? I'd venture to say that not everyone visits both sites so I thought I would share it here too. Since I'm just a delivery driver maybe this site's not for me. I'm not a talented editor/angler/writer/photographer etc. Sorry, but I feel offended by comments like that and I've noticed you seem to like confrontation. You see I've read many of your posts and you just rub me wrong. I don't know how others feel about how you seem to treat members, but for me I think I'm done here. Too bad, it could be a great site with lots of content about everything under the sun, but nothing specific.

Sorry if this offends you. But at this point it really doesn't matter. By the way, you are the only person I've ever encountered on a website that has ever made me say anything negative about them. Wow. Really? Yes really.

adam
05-31-2010, 05:17 PM
You can't offend me, I don't know you however I think the intent for you to offend me is there.



A long time ago, my Mother told me, "Adam, don't try to make everyone happy."




The idea here is that your posts are original to this site, not cut and paste but I already said that.


I can't make it more simple than that.



Oh, you were invited to participate at tenkara-fisher.net by me personally some time ago. I rub you wrong (you are in a long list of people I rub wrong) so you are coming here and "cut and pasting" your story for your friends here?



One thing I will help you with, I am not the nicest guy in the world, not even close, I don't even try.



I'll leave it at that.

Anything else?

rsetina
05-31-2010, 05:47 PM
Adam, I came here in hopes of sharing my experience with people here that haven't joined other sites. I didn't do it for anyone specifically. I thought it to he more trouble than it was worth to retype every word and post every picture all over again. Kind of like rewritting a story in more than one magazine. For the writers on the board, you all should understand.

At first you were just another member of the other Tenkara board but as time went by I realized that it is true. You don't mind saying what you think even if it offends. That's fine. It's your board and you can run it the way you wish. I have nothing more to say.

adam
05-31-2010, 06:14 PM
After so many years of doing this, I have some sort of knack for reading people online, it is a hard earned knack and at times, bit me hard.

In this case, I did not learn anything.

I'll make this statement, "Nothing I pointed at you was personal, what you pointed at me is very personal."

That's the message I am delivering to you along with, "Cut and pasting stories is frowned upon."

adam
05-31-2010, 06:28 PM
For reference.


I don't understand this last comment. I'm not a member at tenkara-fisher.net.

I think what I'm reading here is that if I want to post something here, then it's frowned upon me posting the same report on another site? If I do then it's not considered an original post? Or it's just not original to your site? Post it here only, or don't post it here at all is what I'm getting from of your comments. Wow. Really? I thought this was a site where anglers could post what is really all original material since every time someone clicks the submit button it's original, unless they press quote and don't type anything else, but maybe I'm wrong. All my photos were original, they were my words, my family, my fishing experience, just put on two websites, and I guess that is frowned upon. Really? Seems a little elitist to me. If I found this site different from others I visit I could see your point. But I don't see any difference. It's a group of guys sharing experiences on the water. Can you give me count of how many guys here visit the Tenkara site? I'd venture to say that not everyone visits both sites so I thought I would share it here too. Since I'm just a delivery driver maybe this site's not for me. I'm not a talented editor/angler/writer/photographer etc. Sorry, but I feel offended by comments like that and I've noticed you seem to like confrontation. You see I've read many of your posts and you just rub me wrong. I don't know how others feel about how you seem to treat members, but for me I think I'm done here. Too bad, it could be a great site with lots of content about everything under the sun, but nothing specific.

Sorry if this offends you. But at this point it really doesn't matter. By the way, you are the only person I've ever encountered on a website that has ever made me say anything negative about them. Wow. Really? Yes really.


Adam, I came here in hopes of sharing my experience with people here that haven't joined other sites. I didn't do it for anyone specifically. I thought it to he more trouble than it was worth to retype every word and post every picture all over again. Kind of like rewritting a story in more than one magazine. For the writers on the board, you all should understand.

At first you were just another member of the other Tenkara board but as time went by I realized that it is true. You don't mind saying what you think even if it offends. That's fine. It's your board and you can run it the way you wish. I have nothing more to say.

rsetina
05-31-2010, 06:53 PM
Hope anyone who read my cut and paste liked my story anyway. Sorry to anyone who may have had to read it on both boards if you are a member there too. It will never happen again since you will be able to read it there in the future.

adam
05-31-2010, 08:03 PM
Anyone would include me.

I like your story.

Looks like some pretty cool people having fun, lots of smiles and a interesting rock ring.


Love is, never having to say you are sorry.

I am starting to understand that quote is true.

Love,

adam

Gentleshepherd
05-31-2010, 08:08 PM
Rick,

I don't have a problem reading your stories on any of the sites. I belong to quite a few different foums because I fish a few different styles.

I also have cut and pasted the same wording for different sites. I guess I didn't get caught.

Don't let it bother you, you will only get a headache.

Continue to write your comments and if the moderators don't like it - tough on them!

If we are all to be fishermen - some fishers of men - we have to be able to get our words out to the people who will read what needs to be said.

I hope my comments don't offend too many.

Mike

adam
05-31-2010, 08:22 PM
Good post.

John Lurie made a series of shows about fishing with celebrities. Tom Waits and John Lurie went fishing together and Tom sang a song, "Fishers of men, fishers of men, up one side and back again along the river of men." Anyone who does not know Tom, he has this great voice...

[youtube:dnpjo32w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaL4FHY2_ec[/youtube:dnpjo32w]

Quality vs. quantity?

Some want a busy web site where they can chatter, others want a quiet little place to share their stories, even others want something in between.

I like my web sites like I like my streams.

greendrake
06-02-2010, 11:07 AM
I'm not a rabble rouzer(or is that rebel?) or a troublemaker and Adam ihave a lot of respect for you and consider you a friend even though we have never met in person. But I must say that I have never understood this concept.

Counting me, I believe there are only 8 grassart members here out of over 476 members.Grassart is usually the first place I post because of the kinship and sharing that is prevalent there. Now I would like a good,valid reason why I should deny the other 466 members here a chance to share the pictures and story. The magazine writers/editors concept doesn't hold water for me because they pay you for your original stories and photos giving them the right to demand exclusivity,whereas everything here is done for free and out of the goodness of our hearts in wanting to share our adventures with likeminded individuals from all over the globe.Can you see where I'm coming from?

It is just a completely foreign idea to my way of thinking but I tend to be a bit naive at times for someone who has been around the block more than once.

I think you know me well enough to know that I'm not being confrontational.I just want to understand the reasoning behind this concept.

Thanks,
Will

rayfound
06-02-2010, 12:51 PM
I'm torn on this, because on one hand, where's the sense in posting the same thing multiple times, if the audience is the same each time (I had this issue a while back on another board where essentially all members of one site were also members of another... so double posting really didn't reach many extra eyes).

But when the boards have substantially different readerships, i see no harm. I don't really know the overlap of the two in question here, so I guess I'd leave it to the poster to judge... but I certainly suspect that its a pretty small portion of small stream fishermen that are Tenkara Fishermen.

personally, I'm a member of a forum (and Rick is too), that is largely Californian. We have a few others, but the core group, and the main focus, is on Central/Southern California (and many of us know each other). That forum derives its camaraderie, largely from the geographical closeness, sharing the same waters, and in many cases, knowing each other or sharing common friends.

I am also a member here at small streams, a forum with a much different perspective, much more international, but camaraderie is from the united passion for fishing small streams and trickles. I know of less than 5 people of the 1000 members at the other site who are members here. I certainly want to give back to each community, participate in both.

I Also have been tending to write less reports on forums as I develop my personal site, largely because I don't want to simply repeat information that was presented in one format on my blog, then reformat for forum posting (I prefer the format of the blog). I also don't want to use forums solely as a way to "promote" my site, because that's not fair to the community either.

gusstrand
06-02-2010, 01:54 PM
Like I said in the other post...

No rule, sort of unspoken etiquette. Lots of room for interpretation.

Lots of water has passed underfoot since then.

Bygones.

adam
06-02-2010, 10:23 PM
Will, I am glad you posted your question concern.

Gus "owns" the site but I told him that I would help him with it. I see it as a project that is continually worked upon but has a core set of values.

One of the core values has always been that this site and it's membership are original. One of the reasons why this site exists is because I was rejected by a magazine editor for a story that everyone thought was cool. It's not a joke that magazine editors are some of the reasons books get written or writers get better. Early on I made it an unspoken rule that the content here was to be original and NOT "cut and paste" Your work here was made for this site. This was long before blogger or word press or even other people making web sites on their own. There just were not that many web sites, there were a lot, but nothing like now.

Times change.

An old granny can go to Best Buy and purchase a computer on a Saturday morning and by tea time that afternoon, have a slik web site up and running, an old granny mind you. I know, I've talked to more than a few grandmothers with web sites at my day job.

Now that times have changed, I think it is important to change with them. Everyone has a blog and everyone wants everyone to read their blog and I totally support that however I do not support lessoning our core values. Those values made what this site is all about. I think that if you make something for your blog and you want to post it here for people to see, by all means. As a matter of fact, I think that is quite cool. But say you cut and paste that in your five faves, NO, not here.

This place is special.

You don't think it's special?

I don't think you are special for "cutting and pasting" your story everywhere.

I also think it is crass for someone on their first couple of posts to go straight for the "for sale" forum and place an add for their rods, reels, flys or what ever: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=681 (http://www.smallstreams.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=681)



There are a few more un-written rules, guidelines or what ever that are out there in my brain that many of you may not like. It seems these days, there are many people who take web sites for granted. They feel entitled to say, "this site is bigger than you" or "you are full of sh!t" or what ever.

This site is nothing without you, the readers but more importantly, it is nothing at all without "us" the people who spend countless hours for others to be entertained and sometimes educated.

I AM a good person, a very nice person, I don't need validation from anyone. It is ludicrous when I read posts of how people think they have the write to do this or that here.



If you like the site, let the people who run the site do their thing.


I said, "frowned upon" and this guy writes personally about me. He comes here to post his "cut and paste" story and I rub him wrong?


I can think of many parallels right now that are happening in Arizona but I'm going to leave it at that.


You have a blog, I think that is cool, really I do. You want to "cut and paste" your story here and point to your blog, cool, I can dig that. You write a story and "cut and paste" it here and there, nope, "frowned upon"

Develop your style, a unique and individual style and share it here. You want your story everywhere, submit it to a magazine.

I can't make it more clear than that.

If you don't understand me, I'm ok with that.

Many many people understand me, that's why they are here posting the beautiful stories that they do, unique and individual stories for this site. I will not have those stories diluted with "cut and paste" style.

You asked.

Ernest
06-03-2010, 09:16 AM
I havenít been a very active poster since smallstreams was reconstituted. I used to post more, but my interest is short fiction, and the site has moved toward TRís, photo essays, and creative non-fiction. My stories would be unusual in the current mix.

I understood previously that the author retains the copyright for his original material that appears on smallstreams, and the author may post it elsewhere, sell it if he can, or do whatever with it that he wishes.

In past years I posted stories to smallstreams for which I had already sold a one time use to a limited circulation magazine or journal. And Iíve also submitted to other sites or markets stories that first appeared at smallstreams. Iíve never had anyone complain to me, perhaps because the submissions were separated by months or years, and perhaps because I submitted to two distinct audiences with little or no overlap of members.

But then there are a few posters on regional Midwestern boards who get on my nerves when they post the same report or essay to say, three boards, sometimes with different titles, and I am clicking on something three times that I only needed to enjoy one time.

Iím a fence sitter. I like what Ray wrote; post to the distinct audiences youíre trying to reach, but donít pummel the same guys with multiple submissions of the same essay.

And to balance things out, the administrators/moderators always have the final say about what appears here.

gusstrand
06-03-2010, 09:26 AM
I havenít been a very active poster since smallstreams was reconstituted. I used to post more, but my interest is short fiction... My stories would be unusual in the current mix.

I understood previously that the author retains the copyright for his original material that appears on smallstreams, and the author may post it elsewhere, sell it if he can, or do whatever with it that he wishes.



Users always maintain the rights to their images, prose and all other intellectual property here. I have no intent of it being any other way...

I miss your stories. Where the heck are they? The site is photos and TR's because people post what they know and are not challenged... DD's stories and "trip reports" are close to the old ways... ;) BUT the site is what the users make it. Share your creativity with us again, Ernest... To that end, if anyone wants to try their hand at short stories or other fiction, I'd be glad to create a forum for it.

adam
06-03-2010, 12:11 PM
I understood previously that the author retains the copyright for his original material that appears on smallstreams, and the author may post it elsewhere, sell it if he can, or do whatever with it that he wishes.

In past years I posted stories to smallstreams for which I had already sold a one time use to a limited circulation magazine or journal. And Iíve also submitted to other sites or markets stories that first appeared at smallstreams. Iíve never had anyone complain to me, perhaps because the submissions were separated by months or years, and perhaps because I submitted to two distinct audiences with little or no overlap of members.

Ernest, I miss your work too.

You are correct, those were the rules for the essay contests.

We have one going on now...

Thank you for ringing in.

gusstrand
06-03-2010, 12:17 PM
Ernest, I made a forum just for you...

...and anyone else who wants to write... fictional stories, poetry, whatever.

adam
06-03-2010, 12:22 PM
Gus, my first impression is, that was a knee jerk reaction but you know, I think that is a terific idea now that I am removed from the moment. That forum could be a really cool gallery.

I know I've enjoyed creating a few poems, a song or two.

gusstrand
06-03-2010, 12:28 PM
Sometimes a knee jerk is the best reaction, I suppose.

Ernest called it though. We didn't have a place for simple prose from the heart.

Now we do.