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adam
11-10-2009, 07:56 AM
Hardcore?

What is hardcore?

I used to write about being hardcore, I defined it in words.

I did that quite some time ago, around the time of the Simms advertisement campaign, maybe before, it doesn't matter. I thought it was cool to write about how cool being hardcore was like you could measure cool by being hardcore.



What a bunch of crap.



I have learned most from experiences challenging myself what is hardcore.



There is no hardcore measuring stick.



It is you, practicing what you enjoy 100% without influence from the media.



It is not the advertisements or alternative media that define hardcore.


It is you, alone, doing what you do.


Its out there, lots of people do it, there are web sites based on it, communities of people surrounding themselves with it. I think its a phenomenon based on a lack of self-fulfillment. And its not just fly fishing, looking at the demographics, it is largely based in the lack of security.

I am talking about magazines, web sites, media and the people that support the idea that you must fashion yourself a certain way in order to be like them.

Simms does it.

That is the first series that really stood out for me. I am sure there were others before but the three guides standing in the water looking like they just gunned down a bank next to the wall of cars for erosion control on the riverbank. And I am almost sure that some of us have our own personal photographs in that vein. But the advertising must work, actually, I own Simms waders because they work, not because of the advertisement, that part is completely ridiculous.

Patagonia does it.

Their catalogs reveal what it is to be a dirtbagger. You see them fishing in Yellowstone, climbing in Argentina, surfing the slope in Idaho, standing at camp in Yosemite. I am a dirtbagger but I have a $600 jacket made in Viet Nahm? G~d damn I don’t get it, what happened to the good ole USA? and I own a few Patagonia jackets myself because they work, not because of their ridiculous dirtbag campaign.

The Drake, This is Fly, Trout Underground, there are more...

There is a common theme there and it is not balanced at all, it's about an escape to something we are not. A longing to be a part of something you can never be a part of, the desire.

The campaign is built upon desire and based in a desire that you will never satisfy.

From day one, I have made it my swan song to produce a site that you can "self publish" your story. The story that you wrote for yourself. What ended up happening is that many of us here wrote stories for magazines and they rejected us. Probably because we didn't fit an editors mold or the direction we wanted the magazine to go.

Are you seeing my point?

Many of us went on to write our own books and become authors of our own writing style, some of us went on to become part of the machine I am writing about. And that is ok. It is a personal struggle, your personal struggle but it is often more than not, the struggle being the success, the pursuit being more enjoyable than the destination.

Never let anyone tell you who you are.

Set the standard yourself and constantly adjust it just out of reach.

That's what we do.

[work in progress]

gusstrand
11-10-2009, 12:21 PM
yeah, makes sense... but I also don't associate my buddy Tom with the likes of slick gangsta marketing to gen Y types in the likes of This is Fly (which I also read and enjoy, with a grain of salt.) Trout Underground is just a blog by a fly fishing frustrated but successful copywriter - one of the most creative guys I know. The bottom line is he's about fun...

http://troutunderground.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/tumanifesto.gif

The others are about gen Y. I'm technically an early Gen X'r, as are you... but now, there is another generation in the adulthood zone... and "This is Fly" is perfect for them... Like I said, it's marketing to a demographic of readership. "Hardcore" is a great way of saying what they want to be... the masters of Gen Y marketing these days are easy to spot: first and foremost, there is Apple, but others that embody the generational non-marketing are Trader Joes, Jones Soda, Mountain Dew, and Red Bull - think of how those brands are similar to the brands you mention...


This generation—sometimes called the “Connecteds”—are our own invention. We raised Gen Y to believe that they can do anything and be anything. We made their lives easy enough that they now believe they deserve to live first and work second. (How dare them!) So the first thing we have to do is stop being pissed off at our own creation and embrace the brilliance of this Gen Y community.

This is the most optimistic generation to ever walk the face of the planet. They absolutely believe that miracles are possible. They refuse to work a job that does not bring them a sense of joy. They care about the earth and servicing their community. In Gen Y, we have created the possibility for everything that we wanted for the world. So we must stop whining about them being entitled and embrace the power of this generation. Once we do that, we can then begin to take a closer look at who they are, what makes them tick, and what they want from our businesses.

So my take on it all is "it's just marketing hype" and I overlook it, if not ignore it and tend to look for the grains of useable information and entertainment beyond the hype. Reminds me of a song... as usual... it's aptly titled "All the Hype Money Can Buy"... Time to flick the iPod at the desk to my Five Iron Frenzy playlist... Wait... iPod?

adam
11-10-2009, 01:07 PM
"Trout Underground" = mainstream media

I read it but definately lump it into the catagory I did. I like Tom's writing and what he does but he has become what he tries to distance himself from be design.

That style of journalism does not work for me.

gusstrand
11-10-2009, 01:58 PM
aaaah. OK. So we won't touch the likes of "X"West Flyfishing mag or Fly Fishing or anyt other rag as well. Mainstream is as mainstream does - bottom line is its about getting the ad revenue.

Of course, we're also a bunch of old codgers... In ten years all information will be transferred in groups of 140 characters or less. :) That reminds me of a thread I've been meaning to start... :mrgreen:

adam
11-10-2009, 07:54 PM
Not sure what you are eluding to Gus.

I don't buy magazines, it is a personal waste of time and money.

I recently read an issue of "The Drake" and it is pretty cool but as I wrote above, it is what it is. I even sort of like Tom's site but it's funny, the "Underground" has become mainstream.

Any paper magazine is typically an advertisement revenue stream.

blah blah blah

I think it is hilarious when the underground becomes mainstream. Even more funny when the media talks about itself.

greendrake
11-10-2009, 07:56 PM
Reminds me of a song as well Gus.remember The Whos'-My Generation. Everything gets repeated just in different ways in different eras.
After all,those of us who spent our "formative years" in the 60's also wanted to make a difference.Ecology was coming to the forefront,racial issues etc.,etc.
As I stated at Grassart, I wanted to make a difference,I was all for the sexual revolution,woman being allowed to ball( yeah that was the buzz word of the day) just for the sake of balling.That yes,woman too had a sexual drive and they were being allowed to express it. I was at the front of the line with the largest Bic lighter money could buy.I wanted make sure they ALL burned their bra :lol:
What's the old saw,the more things change the more they remain the same.Same basic ideas just going by a different name in a different era.But I do have to agree whole heartedly with Adam on one point.In todays world it's more in your face while in yesterdays world it was a bit more subtle even if it was just as vocal.
At least that is my take on it :cool:
Will

mikeytwoshoes
11-10-2009, 08:20 PM
well...I don't think that the underground is mainstream. the "actual" underground or tom's trout underground.

I do think that fly fishing is presented as being extreme and I think that that is ridicurous. and of course geared toward a particular demographic. the extremist or hard core are selling the sport to their peers.

fly fishing by it's very nature isn't hardcore. it's a form of relaxation or recreation; recreation defined as a means of refreshment or diversion.

is it hardcore to brave the elements and fish under "extreme" weather? you betcha. just that that doesn't make it hardcore. makes the angler(s) hardcore, but that's different. fishing for hugeasstrout in new zealand or patagonia on trustfund or sponsor $$$ hardcore? no. just very very fortunate. and more power to those who can do so. is it catching fish on a fly you tied with a rod you built yerself on a stream you hiked into? not really, though some, maybe even I may say it is.

what we do is not "in your face" it's personal and it's a spiritual or natural connection to the earth and its creatures and what we make of it. I don't share many fishing stories for a number of reasons. I have more than enough pics of streams and trout and landscape to realize that they all look alike. I have enough pics of myself holding trout to realize they all look the same (most of them). mostly I don't report because it's no one else's business and I don't feel a need to glorify myself. that's hard corps.

hardcore angling in advertising attitude and presentation is all about getting yer face and yer shit in the mags or on the tube and that's just not my gig.

advertizing wise though it may bring some to the sport, but are those the type of people we want to draw?

mikeytwoshoes
11-10-2009, 08:59 PM
oh I should add that I do enjoy a bent rod shot of myself (or anyone for that matter).
but that's not hardcore, that's ego.

greendrake
11-10-2009, 09:00 PM
Mikey please clarify one thing for me,understanding of course, that I believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion.The reason I ask is because I want to know if I am that naive and out of touch with reality.Are you saying that when we experience a good day of fishing in a beautiful setting and want to share the joy we experienced with the other fellows here that we are just doing it to glorify ourselves or to see ourselves on the tube? :?
Will

mikeytwoshoes
11-10-2009, 09:06 PM
not always, no. of course not.
and I have posted pics before perhaps for just that reason.

however taken in the context of hardcore photos, I think that that is often the case. "look at that FISH, and while yer at it, look at ME."

I'll share.

this is my favorite stretch of water
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y46/mikeytwoshoes/churchofthedry.jpg

same stretch hooked up
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y46/mikeytwoshoes/bentdry-1.jpg

sharing again
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y46/mikeytwoshoes/brownrio.jpg

sticking it
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y46/mikeytwoshoes/bent-cowboy-1.jpg

only one of those shots are hardcore and it's only because of the attitude of the angler. and I feel guilty about that. I was showing off and stuck that fish right beneath that fisherman w/ the cowboy hat.

Doctor
11-11-2009, 12:52 PM
Not sure what you are eluding to Gus.

I don't buy magazines, it is a personal waste of time and money.

I recently read an issue of "The Drake" and it is pretty cool but as I wrote above, it is what it is. I even sort of like Tom's site but it's funny, the "Underground" has become mainstream.

Any paper magazine is typically an advertisement revenue stream.

blah blah blah

I think it is hilarious when the underground becomes mainstream. Even more funny when the media talks about itself.

Heading close to 60 now , the grey cell remaining remembers Rolling Stone mag as a love and peace revolutionary publication along with the UKs International Times .
IT got shut down by the UK establishment and R S became just another rather good at time music mag.
Even this ex hippy got a suit and company car,sold out a bit I suppose, Now have a Big beard ,back on a ratty motorcycle,and dont have to cut my hair except to fit it in the Motorcycle helmet.
What goes round and all that .

gusstrand
11-11-2009, 01:05 PM
Not sure what you are eluding to Gus.

I don't buy magazines, it is a personal waste of time and money.
Any paper magazine is typically an advertisement revenue stream.



Exactly what I was meaning, mostly... Magazines are about ads, even the "good" ones. I don't buy them either, as the ad to content ratio is greatly skewed.

The second part is reference to what I'm seeing in the new workplace. Grammar and writing ability are all but gone in the incoming publicly educated texting and twittering (the 140 character reference) generation... it amazes me daily the level of illiteracy that has become the accepted norm - and that has been produced by our High Schools and even Universities.

greendrake
11-11-2009, 04:49 PM
Not sure what you are eluding to Gus.

I don't buy magazines, it is a personal waste of time and money.
Any paper magazine is typically an advertisement revenue stream.



Exactly what I was meaning, mostly... Magazines are about ads, even the "good" ones. I don't buy them either, as the ad to content ratio is greatly skewed.

The second part is reference to what I'm seeing in the new workplace. Grammar and writing ability are all but gone in the incoming publicly educated texting and twittering (the 140 character reference) generation... it amazes me daily the level of illiteracy that has become the accepted norm - and that has been produced by our High Schools and even Universities.

What amazes me is the amount of kids these days that cannot tell the time by looking at a non digital watch :shock: Something that I just take for granted.

gusstrand
11-11-2009, 05:13 PM
Try to get a cashier to count change back to you without looking at the register... My Grandpa owned a stereotypical small town wood floor hardware store - china and appliances in the front, thread your pipe in the back and everything in -between... I learned counting change back at about 10 years old and can't believe how its a lost art... :)

adam
11-12-2009, 08:33 AM
Not sure what you are eluding to Gus.

I don't buy magazines, it is a personal waste of time and money.
Any paper magazine is typically an advertisement revenue stream.



Exactly what I was meaning, mostly... Magazines are about ads, even the "good" ones. I don't buy them either, as the ad to content ratio is greatly skewed.

The second part is reference to what I'm seeing in the new workplace. Grammar and writing ability are all but gone in the incoming publicly educated texting and twittering (the 140 character reference) generation... it amazes me daily the level of illiteracy that has become the accepted norm - and that has been produced by our High Schools and even Universities.

What amazes me is the amount of kids these days that cannot tell the time by looking at a non digital watch :shock: Something that I just take for granted.

There are more kids, that is for sure but they blow us out of the box these days. There have always been kids who were and are challenged, Canadian Club makes advertisements for them, "Your Father had a life before you." Seen those?

Kids this days do things we only dreamed about.

They took the knowledge that we and the generations before us and built upon it.

I don't share the view that you guys do of "kids" quite the opposite.

They are smarter, younger. They do the math I was taught in High School in 5th grade. The video games that do in 1st grade eclipse those as I enjoy as an adult. They are faster, smarter and what they are used to at a very young age, I am often challenged to accept as an adult. There are exceptions with everything, but I think for the most part, kids are smarter today than ever. Able to do menial things that are standard to us? Times change, many of those skills are not necessary in their world.

The generation gap.

It gets wider as technology advances at a faster pace.


The true problem is us. We box up technology, we profit from it instead of sharing it. We dangle the technology instead of allowing others to build upon it, creating things with it. iPod is an example. The aps for it, you can create but what about the guts of the iPod, Jobs won't let you touch that. The guts of a PC are now open and kids are making Frankensteins with it. There are other examples, this is just the 5-minute thought in the morning before work.


I submit the Canadian Club ads for my response to the "be like a man" campaign...


Back to Patagonia.

Do you think human performance is increased because of a fabric?

Absolutely.

More later.

gusstrand
11-12-2009, 09:02 AM
One quick last digression... Adam, you're right.

It's not the kids.

It's the parents.

Fabric? Sure. I know when I ride in my cotton Tee as opposed to my underarmor, it makes a huge difference. Doing a 300' per mile ascent on a mountain bike in 103 degrees F, it makes a HUGE difference. :)

-G

greendrake
11-12-2009, 09:57 AM
I agree as well Adam. I wasn't saying(although it may have come out that way) that kids are dumb.Just that many of them do not know how to do some very simple things that people of my age take for granted.Like being able to tell the time from looking at a watch that doesn't have numbers on it, realizing of course that they have probably never had a watch like that.

And since the technology that they are such whizzes at didn't exist when I was growing up it's understandable that they "blow us away" when it comes to understanding it.Let's face it,it's pretty much a fact that humans get "set in their ways" as they go through life and are slower to react or embrace a lot of new things.

Having been an outdoorsman since childhood the new fabrics are almost without exception superior to what was available in the past.Gus made the point of the Under Armor line which has been a huge improvement in keeping the body cool or warm.I still look at Gore-tex as one of the biggest leaps in field of fabrics during my life time.
Will

adam
11-12-2009, 01:23 PM
Excellent.

We have one thing that kids do not, experience.

We can look back upon our lives and take that forward...

I'm glad you guys clarified. Words are limiting and at the same time, they set us free. I am amazed at the complexity that we can communicate. So many people, internet, keyboard. I refuse to dumb down what I write in order that everyone get it. I'm glad you guys are hanging in there with me, I'm pretty sure we have a lot of commonalities in our look at what we think is hard core.

Fabrics.

Everest.

Patagonia.

Almost full circle.

In the old days, the pioneering days, natural fabrics. Wool, cotton, early nylon. Man, what those guys did, true grit. Now we have lightweight fabrics that allow people to live in very harsh climates. Widely ranging temperatures, performance enhancing fabrics. But it is experience that brings out the performance of the fabric. Patagonia is zeroing in on wool, imagine that. Cashmire, Merino, been around for a while...

Chicken or the egg?

My beef is not with Patagonia or Simms or even Canadian Club. I'm tilting at why they have to advertise this way. They do it because it is effective.

People, kids these days want experience NOW!

That's not how exactly how it works but it is my perception that people want to be recognized immediately when they haven't really earned their turns.

...and I am not about to forget those who came before us.

(cursing) advertisers.

But Yvon Chounard is one cool guy, a very smart surfer, climber, entrepenuer.